Tell-Tale TV Ship Wars: Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike
Ships are a very personal thing. It’s all about feel, if you will. You turn on the TV, see two characters and for some reason; fall in love with their interaction. The reasons why are personal. So is the pairing. And, more often than not, there will be others who just won’t see what you see.
But we’re all friends here. Friends, who can, occasionally, disagree. So, we’re starting a new series where our writers will discuss and debate the ships they’re most passionate about.
For our very first “Ship Wars” we’ve decided to tackle Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and her two main canon loves, Angel and Spike. Maybe we’ll convince you of one side vs. the other. Maybe we won’t. Either way, we’ll have fun trying!
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Ashley: I’ll start us off by saying that I think both ships make sense, but I’ve always been on Team Spike. I think that generally, he treated Buffy more as an equal, instead of trying to do things “for her own good.” He also grew so much as a character, which was ultimately because of Buffy’s influence on him.
Lizzie: On paper, both ships “make sense.” In truth, Buffy/Spike never had a chance to grow. Buffy never gave them that chance. Spike changed because of Buffy, yes, but that doesn’t mean they belong together. And ultimately, the reason they don’t is because Buffy herself decided against it, again and again. In that last episode, when Spike was sacrificing himself for her, she was talking to Angel about being cookie dough. So, really, in Buffy’s heart, there was always just Angel.
Christine: I agree with Lizzie in that Buffy and Spike never had a chance to grow. She was never going to love him the way she loved Angel, and she shouldn’t have, that’s the beauty of your first love. But there’s something to be said about the chemistry and sexual tension between Spike and Buffy. Buffy and Angel’s chemistry just didn’t compare, which is odd, because they literally had sexual tension. They COULDN’T have sex. Spike and Buffy on the other hand…
Jen: I think Spike represented the darker parts of Buffy, which is ultimately why they shouldn’t be together. I adored Spike. He was one of my favorite characters, but the fact that he didn’t have a soul is huge for me. It was always problematic why Spike was able to “love” without a soul and it muddied the waters for me a bit. I could never really get behind Spuffy Season 4-6 for that reason. I think the reason Spike chose to regain his soul is because even he acknowledged there was only so much he could love. There was a piece missing.
My issue isn’t so much Spike. He was a vampire and he never pretended to be anything he wasn’t. The problem is Buffy. She chose to be with Spike because he represented a darkness inside herself. In many ways, sleeping with Spike helped Buffy feel more alive, but in other ways… it was a manifestation of her self-hatred. Buffy hated herself because she craved death more than life. She felt unworthy of her friends and family’s love. So she chose a love once thought to be unworthy.
Christine: At one time, he absolutely did, I totally agree Jen. But after Spike regained his soul (by CHOICE, mind you, not by CURSE like Angel) there was something else that he brought out in Buffy. They had such a deep friendship, one that leaned a little on the love side. He gave her strength and confidence, when everyone else around her abandoned her. Unfortunately for Spike, she was already too damaged by him pre-soul to ever truly consider a romance with him, and that will always be sad, to me.
Lyra: Agree with Christine here. Buffy was way too damaged by pre-soul Spike. Sure they shared a bond, but a relationship wasn’t in the stars for them. Their toxic beginning set them up for failure even before they could start. As for Angel *shrug* didn’t care for him much. But tall and brooding, what’s not to like?
Jen: I totally get that Spike got his soul in Season 7, by choice, and it was completely admirable. But…I couldn’t help but feel Spike’s entire Season 7 storyline was one intended for Angel if he had stayed in Sunnydale, or if the spin off ever failed. It just felt like Angel 2.0 and I could never shake that feeling, so I had a hard time supporting Buffy and Spike in Season 7. That’s more my issue than the shows though. I agree Buffy was incredibly damaged by their relationship in Season 6. There are just some genies you can’t put back and the bottle. I was not a fan of the rape story-line… at all. BTVS didn’t handle it well and it was a confusing message to send to young girls. Since Buffy was sleeping with Spike “un-souled” it made the delineation between good & evil much more difficult to discern. As opposed to Angel/Angelus and Jenny Calendar. I’m a grown woman and it still confuses me.
Lissete Lanuza Sáenz
Lawyer. Writer. Columnist. Geek. Falls in madly in love with fictional characters. Hates the color yellow, misogyny, and people who are late. Can always be found with a book. Watches an absurd amount of TV every week, often, while eating coffee ice cream. She has no regrets. You can check out her blog here: Absurday. Lissete is a senior writer for Tell-Tale TV. Follow @lizziethat
12 comments
Spuffy 100%.
LOL did Bangel even more than 20 episodes together,they are a blip on the radar in the buffyverse IMO. it was a classic Destiny: tell than show” relationship, even worse as they had very little development and interaction than usual “destined couples”. That sort of thing may have worked a little back then but wouldn’t fly in 2015 with the fandom/viewers. Both shows and characters were able to survive and even flourish without the Bangel love story. Says a lot about how much vital that was. Bangel is a ship that works on people but in reality it falls apart, doesn’t work. Might work for movies but not TV, the characters had very little to give each other.
Spuffy was the true main romance of BTVS as was Cangel for Angel. They were adult relationship while Bangel never got a chance to mature and develop to that.. People are quick to point the attempted rape and wrongs of Spuffy but it was statutory rape when Bangel had sex and he stalked her etc. No slayer/vamp pair was completely healthy, its about what grew to be better that makes Spuffy the better choice for Buffy. Buffy was OOC and irrational when it came to “loving” Angel, that relationship was toxic to her character development. They both reached their full potential away from the other. There is a reason why they kept the characters in different shows for years, they were better characters apart!!.
Spuffy hit all the right notes as the slayer/vamp pairing Bangel could have been, it was a second chance for PTB to do that right and they did. There was chemistry, humor, development, respect, maturity etc. That sort of thing doesn’t happen in 20 episodes and when the characters are in two different shows. The problem is the PTB were too scared or not too stubborn to completely let go off bangel and go with what worked for the shows, hence the lame chosen scenes with Bangel. Yeah it was lame how Buffy would always “choose Angel”, when they was no actual narrative reason for their love, than just it was the original plan.
actually had development as friends, partners, lovers and actually got to know each other, not a love based on “assumed destiny” but true love that was earned and grew.. In today’s climate, Spuffy would be the endgame, the true and main love story that actually serviced the show. But I didnt rage after that finale, I smiled because Spuffy was given a beautiful love story and was one of the best elements of BTVS, as was Cangel for ATS. Not being endgame hurts, the “its the journey that matters” is usually a lie by people to make themselves feel better, but in this case I can it was true. BTVS/Angel had great writing for the most part, the journey was always a thrill.
I’m a Bangel shipper all the way.
Spuffy was a destructive relationship and I don’t ship destructive relationships. How anyone can ship them together is beyond me.
“Spuffy was a destructive relationship….”
What do you expect from a relationship with a souless vampire, I just “love” the hypocrisy of Bangel fans, neither was Angel a prince charming.
Buffy: “What was the highlight of our relationship?, when you broke up with me or when I killed you”
Thats Bangel in a nutshell, they never got to be anything more, like Spuffy had. A chance to grow and be healthier.
BTW when is part 2 coming.
I never said that Angel was a Prince Charming. My point, was that Buffy’s romance with Angel was not destructive and unhealthy. Her romance with Spike was and that is something that can NOT be ignored.
Did Bangel even more than 20 episodes..
Bangel is a ship that works on paper…
…too stubborn to let go of Bangel..
[Some corrections ,grr, …]
Ok, so I feel really strongly about being #TeamSpike. I see the points made above, I do. But!! Angel just wasn’t capable of love or anything like it, when he was soulless. He killed Jenny because she was trying to restore his soul. Spike, made a really bad impulsive decision in the bathroom. Yes. No, I don’t like it. I wish Joss had found a better catalyst for Spike seeking to win his soul back. However, in most of Buffy and Spike’s sexual arm episodes, Buffy always said “stop, no, don’t” but she never meant it. THIS time she did mean it. This is NOT her fault!!! That’s NOT what I’m saying. What I am saying, is that its POSSIBLE that Spike thought that’s what was going on here. Was there a time that he didn’t? “I’m gonna make you feel it” implies that yes. But when you see the look of horror in his eyes after she pushes him off, that speaks VOLUMES. He made a HORRIBLE mistake. But that’s what it was a mistake, and I feel like in seeking out, and almost dying for his soul, he proved that he loved her more, and felt more remorse as a soulless demon, than Angel EVER could.
For this reason among many others, I believe that Spike loved Buffy more. Now, did Buffy love Spike like she loved Angel? No. She did not. Sarah said it. James said it. Joss screamed it with Cookie Dough, and Buffy herself proved it when she kissed Angel even after her heart to heart “You’re shirty” with Spike. As a fan I was screaming at the TV. Hoping after the commercial break it wouldn’t be real. Alas, Buffy is not influenced by me or anyone, so Angel is who she loves. BUT!!! She was starting to feel something for Spike. Something real and genuine. Two best friends falling in love, but her love was in the wee budding stages, so we never got to see where it would have lead.
I think ultimately, Season 5 Angel Spike would have been best for Buffy. I think they could have had a beautiful relationship by that point. Run away to Rome together and make a go of it. He was more together (once he was corporeal and also had his arms reattached) then, and living his own destiny and doing things because he truly wanted to, not for her. That’s the PERFECT time to have a relationship with someone. When you’ve got more a sense of self. But… that’s why I love fanfic. A world full of talented fans who see the same vision as me.
In closing, Spike made a MISTAKE. I think by the end of his character arc on Buffy he was REDEEMED, and by the end of Angel more than redeemed. Buffy, at the time of the shows end, loved Angel more. Given time and contact during late Season 5 of Angel, Spike and Buffy could have made a go at it. Angel isn’t capable of love without a soul. Besides, Angel belongs with Cordy! Don’t get me started on that one…;-)
Not “sexual arm episodes” Darn spell correct!! Sexual erm episodes. For lack of a better term than episodes. Escapades maybe? Yea, I think we’ll go with that.
Spuffy ♥
I think both of those relationships were important to her, but they both took place in different moments of her life. What High School Buffy would have looked for in a relationship wasn’t what she was looking for at the end of the show. She grew as a woman, and I think Spike is the person that connected to her the most through her journey.
Angel’s place in Buffy’s life never totally felt real to me. I think the drama contained in their relationship is what made the relationship so intense, but I never felt that we really got to discover their relationship beyond that intensity. Did they really know each other? Would they to know how to face daily situations?
The “forever” thing doesn’t work for me, because I find that way to easy when it’s used in stories and I don’t connect with it.
That’s what I liked about Spuffy. It wasn’t pretty all the time, but it felt very real to me. Because the kind of love that we got to see between them was born with the perfect knowledge of the dark/bad they were both able to express, but also with the knowledge of the beautiful things they had to offer. While with Angel, Buffy fell in love and then went from bad surprises to bad surprises (she discovered he was a vampire, discovered the curse at great cost…). It went differently with Spike, starting with the bad, and he surprised her a little bit more every time (going after his soul, being there for her, sacrificing himself). Through the course of the show, we see Buffy slowly opening herself up to Spike, after all the suffering she endured (the death of her mom, her own death, the daily responsabilities, her depression, her leading position in season 7…) and while her life was really complicated and full of responsabilities beyond her Slayer duties.. In season 5, Buffy even doubted that she still had the ability to love. While love was still there, she just expressed it differently. Buffy built a lot of walls around her heart through the course of the show, and she became more and more emotionaly closed. But Spike always remained close to her at the end of the show. He was the one who saw her fragilities and the one she was relying on. She knows him, trusts him and believes in him and what he is capable of.
Buffy & Spike didn’t always made the right choices when it came to their relationship, in season 6 more specifically, it was very complex (especially because I think Buffy had feelings for him and that’s what made their relationship this season so difficult and interesting). But the show acknowledged the unhealthy dimension of their relationship as such and dealt with the consequences in season 7 (of course, it could be discussed if it was enough or not, I personally believe it was well done). I think Bangel was unhealthy in it’s own way, but the show didn’t acknowledged it the same way, and that was problematic to me.
Another thing that I liked about Buffy & Spike is that in despite of their codependency, they trusted each other’s abilities & strenght. We learn in ATS season 5 that Angel put spies on Buffy, like if she wasn’t able to take care of herself or wasn’t free to let him know what she wanted him to know. I think Angel still sees her as the girl he knew, who yet was a very strong person at the time, and he always acted in this paternalistic way, taking decisions without consulting her, even in IWRY. It’s a pattern of his character, not just with Buffy, but it’s not something positive about their relationship and I haven’t been satisfied by how the show dealt with the issue. Spike had his own faults, of course! Spike had mysoginist notions probably induced by his past education (I think he evolved from that in some ways, even if there’s still some work to do), the same way Angel’s education probably influenced him.
By the end of the show, I believe Buffy & Angel idealized a lot the relationship they had and what each other could offer, which is why it continued to exist for so long in their minds. They couldn’t live their relationship, so like everything that is forbidden, they remained focused on it. They were stuck in the past and became again who they once were in the short times of their meetings after season 3. Not because of some ‘eternal love’, but because they didn’t know how to be their current selves around each other. They were very disconnected of each other’s lives (which is normal, they saw each other maybe an hour every year) and very oblivious of the person they became. I don’t believe in their relationship. and I don’t think they could make this work. They’re both leaders, they do things their own ways, and they built their lives without each other. When I look at their characters, I think they’re too similar in the wrong ways, and too differents in what should matter.
In the Buffy/Spike relationship, they are right there with each other, side by side. They have been through a lot, and at the same time, they got to really know each other. I believe Buffy started to have feelings for Spike in season 6, but it only had the opportunity to blossom in season 7.
When it comes to comparing Spuffy & Bangel, Joss Whedon made a nice comment in the Chosen commentary :
“The great Marsters with a chemistry with Buffy that is just completely different from Angel’s, and different than David’s, and yet works very, very well. He’s more on Buffy’s level. He’s more… Their vulnerabilities come out, and I don’t just mean as characters, but as actors around each other. And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot – much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way. And you feel that history with these two,” ~ Joss Whedon
To me, there was something more in the Spuffy relationship. Deeper and more real emotionnally. Something you can relate to. They got each other’s back, not only materially but also emotionally. They allowed themselves to be vulnerable around each other. They pushed each other to believe in themselves, like in this beautiful Spike’s speech in Touched, which allowed her to have her strenght back and go look after the Scythe (and that’s partly what made them win their war against the First!). I think those two characters are very connected to each other and know how to reach each other, sometimes in bad ways, and sometimes in very good ways. Again, they’re not perfect, but they accept that. They are who they are, with their flaws and strenghts, and in despite of the bad, they still know how to praise what’s beautiful in each other. Like Spike said, “I’ve seen the best and the worst of you. (…) I love what you are, what you do, how you try.” And that’s why their love for each other felt more real and beautiful to me.
They don’t expect perfection from each other, whereas I believe Buffy and Angel tend to expect something way too ‘unreal’ from each other.
I thought Buffy & Spike’s hands on fire at the end of Chosen was a beautiful outcome for their relationship. Buffy’s love & feelings have always been thematically connected to fire. In season 5, the first Slayer told her that her love was brighter than fire. In season 6, she sang in OMWF that she felt empty and wanted “the fire back”. In Chosen, she got this fire back in her shared moment with Spike when she took his hand. Symbolically, she got her fire back. And that’s because she really loved him. I believe she fell in love with him, but needed time to open herself to that love. Because her life hasn’t been easy up to this point, and she got burned several times. And it was Spike, her former enemy, which made things more complex.
But at the end of the day, I think their relationship meant a lot to their characters and their characters’ journey.
Aaaannnd… Buffy’s last word in the show was “Spike” .:)
(English is not my mother tongue, sorry if I made mistakes! And sorry for being so passionate on the subject, I didn’t think my post was going to be so long!).
Brava!! Well said!!! After rewatching Season 7 this week? I saw it. Buffy’s true love for Spike. She really did love him. Her face in Lies My parents Told Me, when she thought Spike was in real danger, said it all. That woman truly loved and needed him. And in the end? She respected him too. Your points were beautiful! No worries about english as a second language. Your words came through perfectly. Your perspective on both relationships rings true. I’m glad you commented. Now I must read every post Chosen Spuffy fanfic out there, to see what their possibilities could have been 😉
Beautifully said, I agree totally. The fact that they each saw each other at their worst and at their most vulnerable really adds a lot to their relationship. They know each other, understand each other in ways other people can’t. Interestingly, in “Something Blue”, Buffy hesitates in dating Riley, and suggests that you can’t have real, passionate love without pain. And boy was there pain in their(Spike/Buffy) relationship. And again, it ended up bringing them closer.
Though I’m curious, if you see this post, what do you consider as the misogynistic notions that Spike has?
Buffy’s rleationship with Spike was unhealthy and destructive when he didn’t have a soul. At that point, she didn’t love him, and she couldn’t let herself love him. When he got his soul back, for her, he was every bit as selfless as Angel. He asked Buffy to kill him, and later proposed to leave Sunnydale because he thought he was a danger for Buffy and the others. She refused. She needed him to stay, and so he did. And her relationship with Angel was arguably unhealthy in the sense that she was so completely in love with him that she was losing herself in him. She said to Angel, in the beginning of season 2, that she couldn’t see anything in her future but him. That’s romantic, but also dangerous. She let herself, her happiness, be defined by her relationship, which probably would have ended badly even without the curse. And when Angel came back from hell, their impossible relationship was also arguably unhealthy, which prompted Angel to leave. In a way, Buffy was doomed for complex, painful and often unhealthy relationships given her role, walk of life and life experiences. But I think the relationship she has with Spike in season 7 is probably the healthiest we’ve seen. Mutual support and respect, loyalty, care, and yes, love. Both care for each other, rely on each other without being dependent. If only they had a little more time to further those feelings(I know they do in the comics, but I’m not there yet)…
Buffy loves Angel, that’s undeniable. She probably always will have feelings for him. But the point of her cookie dough speech was not that she still had plans for a life with Angel. On the opposite, the whole point is that she doesn’t have plans, and implicitly that right now Spike is the one she needs and wants with her. Again, she still has feelings for Angel, and she lets him know that they might still have a chance one day(if only he could get rid of that pesky curse). And that’s the reality of love: throughout your life, you will probably love many persons. Perhaps not all of them in the same way. And even if you keep feelings for one person, that doesn’t mean you can’t love someone else as well(indeed, you can love and have relationships with many persons at the same time, which might or might not end well). Bangel and Spuffy are really difficult to compare, as they’re so different. Buffy completely fell in love with Angel as a teenager. As far as we know, he was the first person she really loved romantically. But so much happened to her since, and her character changed quite a lot. Her relationship with Spike was really different, so much more complex, and really evolved over many years. Less pretty, also. Painful, but intense and beautiful in its own way. Buffy’s feelings for Spike changed and grew to finally become love. From “School Hard”, when he was just a big bad vampire trying to kill her, to “Intervention”, when she first saw his feelings for what they were(although she kept deyning it to herself throughout season 6), and to “Chosen”, when she saw her own feelings for what they were, there was a tremendous evolution. And that’s what makes their relationship great. Did she love him more than Angel? Probably not, but only because she didn’t have the time to. And again, her relationship with Angel was so different, that it’s not really comparable. I mean, Spike tried to rape her, and she still had feelings for him. Even before she knew he got his soul back, I think she still showed compassion and care when she saw him again in “Lessons”. And just after “Seeing Red”, she still trusted him to watch over Dawn. Not without reasons(as she said, he couldn’t, and he had no reason to), but probably not without feelings either.
The Spike/Buffy relationship really brought a fact of real relationships to light: people who love each other can still hurt each other. I think Spike’s love for Buffy, even without a soul, was undeniable. It was obsessive, it was dangerous(as he admitted himself), but it was “real” love nonetheless. But love isn’t always pretty, and it can lead people to do pretty ugly things, especially when their feelings are not requited, and when they become desperate. But then again, love can be a powerful force for good, a force for change.
I think their relationship really says a lot more interesting things about love and relationships than her relationship with Angel did.
Spike and Buffy’s relationship made them both evolve as characters, and consequently their relationship evolved with them.
So I vote for Spuffy if only because it is so much more complex and interesting, and yet still beautiful and heartwarming in the end.
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